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Charlie Melcher:

Hi, I'm Charlie Melcher, founder and director of the Future of StoryTelling. Delighted you're here with me for today's episode of the FoST podcast, of the many ways in which the art and practice of storytelling is evolving in modern society. Perhaps the most visible is in the field of brands storytelling. Until very recently, few brands would dare to communicate political messages in their marketing efforts. In fact, many took great pains to portray themselves as apolitical, staying out of the frame. Today, however, many consumers, especially among the younger generations expect their favorite brands to share their own values and ideals. And failing to communicate those ideals can damage a brand's reputation with its customers.

Doug Palladini is acutely aware of these changing expectations among his consumers. As the global brand president of Vans, he directs the company's strategy at the highest level and helps it tell its story to millions of fans worldwide. But Doug recognizes that in today's world, the work of brand building is as much an internal process as it is an external one. That's why he brought in Amber Cabral, an inclusion and diversity strategist who helps Vans not only tell stories that would resonate with its vast and diverse fan base, but also ensure that its actions as a company reflect those messages. In other words, that it walk its talk. 20 years ago, a role like Amber's may not even have existed. Today, people like her are central to brand success. I'm excited to share my conversation with Doug Palladini and Amber Cabral.

Charlie Melcher:

Doug Palladini, Amber Cabral, it is such an honor to have you both on the Future of StoryTelling podcast. Thanks for being here today.

Amber Cabral:

Thank you for having me.

Doug Palladini:

Me too.

Charlie Melcher:

So Doug, you run a major super cool company.

Doug Palladini:

Thank you.

Charlie Melcher:

You're the president of Vans. We're big fans of your company and your amazing products. I wanted to start by asking you a question. These days brands are speaking out more often about political and social issues. As a leader of a company, what are your thoughts on this shift and how is it playing out for you at Vans?

Doug Palladini:

Yeah, there's a lot of answers to that question, Charlie, but the first answer is the changing expectation of consumers. Our fans expect us to be there alongside them in what's most important in their lives. And more and more, especially with the generations we deal with focused primarily on youth culture, these things are around real social cause issues and racial justice is one of the most important. I think there's a consumer expectation there.

Second, I think there's an expectation from our employees, people who work at Vans, our BIPOC community and the white people who work at Vans want what we believe in as a brand to resonate outward and to be truly sincere and to reflect what we want to see in the world.

And then I think finally, there's an expectation that it's not just going to be talk. It's one thing to speak and to sort of have that intestinal fortitude to say, "We're willing to leave some consumers who may not agree with us behind because it's the right thing to do, to represent who we are in a sincere and authentic way." But then it's not just about saying it, it's about the actions that go behind it, those sustained actions that I think truly move you from saying "No, no, we're not racist." To saying, "No, we are anti-racist." And that's I think, the third very important point I would make.

Charlie Melcher:

I know that you've worked closely with Amber, in fact, you helped to bring her into Vans to address some of these issues. And Amber, tell us just quickly a little bit about the work that you do and how you work with companies?

Amber Cabral:

I have a company called Cabral Co. that does inclusion and diversity consulting, and that can be anything from training to strategy building to coaching, just really depends on the needs of the organization. And so what we try to do is build relationships with brands. Largely, I support retail brands and basically try to figure out, what is it that is going to help you to be able to create a culture of belonging both with the employees that you have working there, but also building that same culture of belonging and connectivity with the customers that you serve.

Charlie Melcher:

So it's both a process that's outward-facing and a process that's inward-facing?

Amber Cabral:

Absolutely. And it has to be, because otherwise you can have an amazing culture inside your organization but no one wants to buy your product. And so, there's always this art of making sure that you have a really good connection with your associates and that that is able to transmit outward so people want to be a part of it and they want to feel connected to it. Brands particularly, try to take the opposite approach, they come across really amazing on the outside but then on the inside, they're not quite together, and then of course, once that leaks out, people are like, "Oh, I don't want to buy that anymore." Right? So we try to approach it from the standpoint of, get really healthy from within, that's the approach that we try to take as an organization.

Doug Palladini:

Honestly, Amber, that sort of like honest inventory of the role our brand has to play and starting looking inward has been a great learning that you have taught us, so that's been greatly appreciated and hopefully pretty well absorbed in our organization.

Charlie Melcher:

Now, was that an easy process, Doug, to do that kind of internal look and how did you go about it? What are some of your findings?

Doug Palladini:

It's not easy, it's uneasy and you feel uneasy going through it. And the honest answer, Charlie is that it starts with me. It starts with the president of the company and I think it really should. I had to acknowledge sort of my own privilege and the platform that I have as the Vans global brand president, and then think about what I needed to do to hand that over to our BIPOC employees and make sure that we were supporting what they wanted to do with our brand as a platform for action to make their voices heard.

So that introspection was the first very most critical part. And it's difficult to hear some of the stuff, Charlie. These listening sessions we held, people that you care for deeply in your organization who are in tears, very vulnerable in front of all their co-workers, telling stories of being pulled over by police for being the color that they are.

The one that always sticks with me, I'll never forget this as long as I live, is a woman in tears telling the story of comparing notes with other Vans employees about which cameras were best for your car and your bike so that you could record any altercations that you had. Now, I think about coming from a place of privilege, that thought never crossed my mind in all 54 years I've been on this planet. But to hear that my employees were having to think about things like that, it's quite a difficult reckoning and a very important one for us to have.

Charlie Melcher:

How is it that you're now taking those lessons from that intense listening and making change internally?

Doug Palladini:

Some of it's what you say, some of it's giving money, that's an obvious part. But then, it's about us actually rolling up our sleeves and getting busy ourselves.

Charlie Melcher:

Amber, what kind of advice did you give or do you give in general when you get to go into a company like this to help them with their culture of inclusiveness?

Amber Cabral:

What I try to do is a couple of really important things. First, I try to help people to understand their position in the problem. So if I'm thinking back, way back when I first started having conversations with Vans, we were talking about unconscious bias. We were talking about what does inclusion mean? We were talking about what is diversity actually defined as? Creating an environment where we can pressure-test it and ask questions around it. Like, "Well, wait, I thought that when I said diverse, that meant everyone that wasn't white." And I'm like, "No, diversity includes everybody. Let's broaden that definition." And so like, the willingness to make those shifts. And so what my job essentially becomes is kind of leading people down the path of having the words to be able to have the discussions first. And the more you get exposure to that and the more you can expose yourself to that responsibly and the more you're brave enough to lean into the conversations that are going to help you to be able to engage with others in meaningful ways, the better you're going to be, the better your company is going to be, the better leader you're going to be. And so, that's the job that I play when I'm engaging with a company like Vans.

Doug Palladini:

Amber, one thing that has really stuck with me, the white fragility that exists and some of the stories you've shared with us about that fragility has been a very good lesson to me and to our executive team who've learned from you.

Charlie Melcher:

What is a story? You don't need to name names, I'm not asking, but help us hold a mirror up to understand our own fragility through somebody else's story.

Amber Cabral:

I was at an organization and we were kicking off a employee resource group event that was a black event. It was focused on African American black associates and so they were all kind of getting together to have a conversation to kick off this ERG. And if anyone knows anything about ERG is we try to be strategic and make sure that the person that is the executive sponsor, that's going to help support the group is a white person and ideally a white man, depending on the structure of the organization, because I've got a lot of influence in the company and they'll help make sure that the organization thrives.

So in this case it was a white man that was... Oh gosh, if he hears this, he's going to be like, "I can't believe you told that story." But it was a white man and he had to do the kickoff. And so, he comes in to the room and this room full of black folks, he sits there and then he's introduced. He goes up, he knocks it out of the park, great welcome message, says a few things and then we leave the room. We're walking together and he says, "Oh my gosh, I was the only one."

And I just turned and looked at him like, "Hi?" And he was like, "Oh, I can't believe I said that." And I'm like, "Hold onto that feeling you just had like you were in a room full of black people. Now think about everybody you know. You have that as a rare experience. Imagine that being your every single day. Your every time you go to work, your every time you go to school, your every time you go shopping, your every time. Imagine that being your world, that you don't know if there's going to be anyone else there that looks like you, just that simple thing." And he just literally stood in the hallway and you could just see it unfold in his face, just created this amazing learning opportunity. So yeah, there's a ton of them. It happens all day.

Charlie Melcher:

Tell us, Doug, about the kind of storytelling that you're doing now, as you've benefited from this kind of work and having the bravery and the commitment to be very public with your support of Black Lives Matter, racial justice, inclusion, equality, how has that changed the way you tell stories or show up in the world with your customers?

Doug Palladini:

It's become much more important to be quite overt about what we stand for, what we believe in, and again, like I mentioned earlier, being willing to live with... that may not meet with everybody's satisfaction. I wish I could go back and share with you all the content that was generated the day we published Black Lives Matter. The feedback, it was powerful in both very positive and incredibly negative ways.

Charlie Melcher:

So first of all, tell us how did you publish that? How did you come out with that?

Doug Palladini:

We came out and made a series of statements over the course of maybe 30 days about really what we stood for and why it was important to our brand. And so for us, we sort of had to armor ourselves and say, "No, we're going to keep moving forward." We had people saying, "Here's a picture of all my Vans in the trash can, because all lives matter." As much as that hurts—we don't want to lose consumers, our job is to make money, not lose it—we had to say to ourselves, "That's okay, that person's probably not the best fan of our brand anyway, because they clearly don't have the same set of values as we do."

Charlie Melcher:

But I know that the majority of the companies in the country, in the world still consider it to be economically risky to do this kind of thing. And they'd rather hold back, be neutral or just be in the shadows, frankly.

Doug Palladini:

You know what Charlie? What I would say is I would say that you're putting your company almost at greater peril by doing that. I would suggest that today based on a small bit of enlightenment we've received so far, to not do anything, to not say anything, to shrink back into the shadows, and away from this opportunity is almost more of a dangerous path for your company than to actually say what you believe in.

Charlie Melcher:

We're in a time where there seems to be a little lack of moral leadership politically. And here, we're talking about the companies stepping up and playing that role, providing a kind of moral compass or leadership. Do you think that there's a relationship there that because we have a vacuum in one arena, that there's a need for companies to step up and to fill that?

Amber Cabral:

So first and foremost, business and government are entangled. With that being the case, what I try to remind the clients that I support is that, who are you without your customers? Who are you without the people that are buying your product or using your service? And are you okay with that person if all of those customers do not feel protected? Because you have the influence in some ways to say and do things in the government space that individuals do not.

But the other side of it is, we also live in an atmosphere where it's very convenient for people to align and connect identity to politics in a way that not, like my identity is not political, I exist, I am here regardless of what the political landscape may be. I try to encourage people to understand that me saying "Black Lives Matter" is not a political movement. There is a problem with the way black people experience safety and security and access to opportunity in this country. That's not political, that is an experience of this system. And so, it's both, and I think that that's also kind of a thing that it takes a little time for organizations and the individuals in an organization to be able to connect to, because the answer is "yes and," kind of, like, this is the case, but also, so is that.

Charlie Melcher:

So it seems to me that you're working on building new kinds of community, both of you in different ways or, and in many ways that overlap. But Doug, talk to me about the community that you try to foster around your brand?

Doug Palladini:

What centers our communities is this concept of enabling creative self-expression. And those are the stories that we try to tell. And there's four major communities in our family. One around art, one around music, action sports, and street culture. So art, music, and street culture, to a great extent, are very diverse. Guess where Vans came from? Vans came from action sports. We came from a white male world that has only very recently begun to change for the better, allowing women, allowing more people of color to represent themselves through the creative expression that comes through skateboarding, surfing, snowboarding, truly white pursuits for the majority of their history. So for us, for 54 years, we've been a brand based in Orange County, California. Orange County is going through a transformation right now, but it has historically been known as a very right-wing, very white place to live. Believe me, there's plenty of work like I said, very close to us to keep us busy for the foreseeable future.

Charlie Melcher:

And Amber, you would agree that this kind of work needs to start close to home, right?

Amber Cabral:

Absolutely. The fact that they are willing to start in their own space, in their own community is a huge reason why they can do the things that they're able to do now publicly and make the statements that they're making now publicly. And I've got to figure out how to create a space where I can invite all the things that I say matter to me. And I need to start doing it in the places I have the most influence and where you have more influence outside of your own home.

And this also goes for the conversations that need to happen around identity and around safety and around black lives and around... Those conversations need to happen in your house, at your kitchen table. Is that the hardest place to have them? Probably, but that's where they have to happen first, because when you do that work, oh, you can go out in the world and do almost anything. Because you're going to get the most challenge from the people that care about you, that feel safe pushing back against your ideas.

And so, to be very honest, I think the reason that Vans and I have continued to work together so long is that I come from a space of, "Listen, this is what the work looks and feels like and I am happy to guide you through." But they've also come from a space of like, "Okay, we're going to get uncomfortable. I trust you to lead me there." And you have to have that to be able to execute in this space and be brave enough to recognize that some of the ideas that you've carried could potentially be damaging and have the bravery to say, "Hey, look, we're going to be different in this way going forward."

Charlie Melcher:

So let me ask a question about the relationship between racial diversity and cultural diversity. I know that Vans has had a long history of supporting different types of creativity and really trying to foster communities of creativity. Is that possible without also being supportive of racial diversity? What is that relationship for you?

Doug Palladini:

I would suggest that we take the holistic view of diversity and then consider everything, of which race is an important part but not the only part. And so I think we just... Yeah, that's the best answer I have Charlie, honestly is to try to look at it really holistically, all forms of creative expression are good for us and we embrace them and try to uplift them and enable them wherever possible. How about an understanding about what you're able to achieve in your life and what's out there for you based on that kind of education that you're getting? How about those after-school opportunities that are implied in very wealthy schools and completely absent in schools in underserved communities? So that access is a very important part of developing that diversity of culture, of race, of it all.

Amber Cabral:

I try to get people to consider the possibility that, if I didn't have access, that doesn't mean that I'm not still good. That doesn't mean that your job is just to give me access. Your job is also to open your aperture to the possibility that I'm still amazing. You just haven't seen it yet.

Doug Palladini:

If you see an amazing clip of Vans skateboarding on YouTube, and then we have a learn to skate session at the House Of Vans in Chicago, that's free and you can just come in the morning. That's what it's all about and so we try to do the same thing with art and with music, things in street culture as well, even designing shoes. We have programs with partners to work on those kinds of things as well. So it's about inspiring and then creating those pathways because our diverse community will walk down those pathways once they see them.

Charlie Melcher:

Doug, tell us about how you as a brand try to elevate the kinds of creativity and creators that you support?

Doug Palladini:

The first one that comes to mind is there's a musician that we work with and his name is Bohan Phoenix. And it's amazing because he's bicultural. He's both from New York and from China in exactly equal amounts, and he had a real propensity for music and for rapping and for telling stories that just roll off his lips. And so he started rapping going back and forth between English and Mandarin.

Bohan Phoenix:

[Bohan's track "Product" plays].

Doug Palladini:

And he started to build his followings both in the United States and in China, because he just was super honest about who he was and what was important to him.

Amber Cabral:

It's always worth it to be yourself. It's one of the hardest things you'll do in your whole life, like the doors that fly open, the opportunities that show up, the connections that you build. And so just think about the world that we could have if we just showed up, like we were so willing to just let go of these preconceived notions and ideas and standards and structures that we have been told are the way to be, but we actually were willing to lean into that thing that's like, "Listen, this is what you're here for." Oh, my gosh, the world we live would be incredible.

Charlie Melcher:

What I love is that it sounds to me that you're trying to create a world that you want to live in, more than trying to sell some product. It's for a generation of young people who are going to inhabit our planet and live in a kind of openness or creativity or diversity and if they do that, well, maybe they'll also wear a pair of Vans sneakers and that'd be cool. But-

Doug Palladini:

If I told you that Vans' purpose on earth was to sling shoes and T-shirts, would that inspire you?

Charlie Melcher:

No sir.

Doug Palladini:

There's got to be a higher calling. We have tens of thousands of people in 90 countries around the world working on our brand, these are employees, okay? Not even to mention the hundreds of millions of fans. Can I inspire them by saying, "go sell more, stack the t-shirts higher"? That's not an inspiring message anymore, that doesn't cut it anymore. It's not a features and benefits world we live in anymore, it's so much more about the higher calling. It's about the responsibility that we have to show that we're a people company and that our people demand more out of us than just... Yeah, just the shoes.

Charlie Melcher:

I'm speechless because I think that really sort of sums up exactly what conversation, at least from the Vans side, is about. So in the work you do, Amber, I understand that a lot of your experience, you've put it into a book. You've just written this book, Allies and Advocates. I'd love to hear a little bit about it.

Amber Cabral:

It is kind of a very practical: What to do, how to say it, what do I do when I'm in a hard conversation? What do I do when I need to talk to my family about the difficult stuff? What's the right way for me to show up as an ally? What's an advocate? How do I show up as that? It's very practical, not step-by-step, but really realistic things that you can kind of just embed in your day-to-day practice. It's not necessarily a, here's a theoretical litany of information. It's more a, here is how I can make this happen in my real life. So I'm excited that it's coming out soon.

Charlie Melcher:

Well, I just want to say how appreciative I am, Doug, that you showed up with your fully open-hearted, vulnerable self and were willing to be present and be vulnerable. And Amber, that you were willing to show up with the beautiful wisdom and energy that is you. So that you were both here with me on this day with our listeners, it helps me feel a lot better about what's going on in the world right now, and much more optimistic about where we will get, where we will get to, even if it takes a little longer or it's going to be a little bumpy. So, thank you both so much for being here.

Doug Palladini:

Thank you.

Amber Cabral:

Thank you.

Charlie Melcher:

My sincere thanks to both Doug and Amber for joining me today. You can learn more about both of today's guests, watch the Vans video of Bohan Phoenix, and find the link to purchase Amber's book by visiting this episode's page on the Future of StoryTelling website at fost.org, or by following the link in this episode's description. Thank you for listening to the Future of StoryTelling podcast, produced in partnership with Charts and Leisure. If you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast, give us a review, and share our show with a friend. I hope you'll join us in a couple of weeks for another deep dive into the world of storytelling. Until then, please stay safe, be strong and story on.